Anonymous said ...
Nice response, Pastor Garman.Sounds reasonable to me. This process has been going on for over a year, with multiple opportunities for input. The pastors have responded in person or writing to people asking questions. It is not their fault if after events have been publicized they are not well attended!
I would agree that members have to put their thoughts and words into action. I would question whether the every Sunday member recognizes how important a decision this is. We have arguably 1700 members at worship any given Sunday, and only 433 CARE enough to show up for the vote? I simply cannot accept that.
Anonymous said ...
I think we can draw some conclusions...1) people love La Casa and all the many ministries-they don't care about a dying denomination..."all politics is local" as someone said, maybe all "church is local"
I think we can draw some conclusions...1) people love La Casa and all the many ministries-they don't care about a dying denomination..."all politics is local" as someone said, maybe all "church is local"
I would argue that with 10,000 estimated churches represented by ELCA as being members, and perhaps 600 of these moving away from ELCA that ELCA is hardly a dying denomination. I love La Casa as well, and I feel we do good works in some areas. However, I feel that the statement we will be making to our community is not one of Christian Love and inclusion. Therefore, I would argue we are walking away from Our Lord and Savior, and not closer to Him.
Anonymous said ...
2) People trust that for a year a good process was in place with lots of input from members. Sure, not everyone likes the results, like the blog author, but overall, people are affirming the decisions made.
2) People trust that for a year a good process was in place with lots of input from members. Sure, not everyone likes the results, like the blog author, but overall, people are affirming the decisions made.
No, I do not like the results to date, and have issues with the process. However, I would argue that people overall are not affirming anything. I want a representative vote to take place and have stated so many times.
Anonymous said ...
3) I think once the vote is made that people who disagree have a choice...stick with the church and focus on other issues, or leave. Once the church has spoken, however it turns out, it is time to move on. If someone does not our pastors and leaders, why would they stay?
3) I think once the vote is made that people who disagree have a choice...stick with the church and focus on other issues, or leave. Once the church has spoken, however it turns out, it is time to move on. If someone does not our pastors and leaders, why would they stay?
I agree, but to take it one step further, I don’t know what your last comment is meant to include, but I will add the phrase “agree with theologically” to your sentence. I like these three folks but I do disagree with them theologically, philosophically and morally with their decision to lead us away from growth and new, exciting, scriptural revelation and realization by our denominational leadership.
Anonymous said ...
4) People simply don't care. Maybe they should, maybe they are broke or losing their homes. This is way below the radar screen for many.
4) People simply don't care. Maybe they should, maybe they are broke or losing their homes. This is way below the radar screen for many.
Alas, I hope it is not so. I’ve taken severe economic blows from this recession, but I find time to tend to my ministry, as well as contribute to Sunday services in whatever way I can both financially and spiritually.
Anonymous said ...
One final comment-no process is perfect. If our leaders really wanted to leave ELCA and not seek out the wisdom of the people, they could have done so right after the decisions when emotions were high. Instead, they chose a cooling off period, many opportunities for input, opened their doors and inboxes.
I would concur with you. Again, I am not in opposition to the leadership personally, but I am in opposition to their message and their methods.
Anonymous said ...
Out of a congregation of 3500 or so people a total of about 50 have voted here. I think that says a lot.
Out of a congregation of 3500 or so people a total of about 50 have voted here. I think that says a lot.
I would argue that this may be caused by lack of exposure to the blog. The flyer campaign has been discontinued due to objections from Pastor Garman, and out of respect to him I complied. However, I will not stop in my attempts to get the word out and hopefully get a large percentage of our membership engaged in this decision.
Posts
The ELCA is dying. So is every other denomination. They have dropped over a million members in twenty years and now the decline is accelerating. The ELCA leaders keep saying only a few hundred have left, but every weekend five to ten more churches vote to leave, and it keeps accelerating... check this blog out,
ReplyDeletehttp://davidbarnhart.blogspot.com/
Just last weekend almost 20 more voted to leave!
This is not to mention the churches that have split, like in Fountain Hills. The true damage is not churches leaving, it is the ones closing their doors as members walk and people split. Sad the ECLA has decided politics and socials issues are more important than preaching the bible.
As for you getting a larger number to vote, good luck. Judging that you have a grand total of less than 1% of the membership voting here, I don't think that will happen.
The church in Fountain Hills is leaving at the insistance of its pastors. Over 80% of the congregation did a survey and stated that they wanted to stay in the ELCA. The Pastors pushed the issue and the church has split. Part of the church has now formed its own worshipping community in Fountain hills. So the split in Fountain Hills is not because of anything the ELCA did but because the Pastors usurped the will of the congregation. The mailing in Fountain Hills went out to the whole congregation. Great leadership.
ReplyDeleteActually, that is not true. At the first vote , 66% percent in Fountain Hills voted to LEAVE, there could not be 80% who wanted to stay... I used to be a member there, have since joined La Casa.
ReplyDeleteThere are always two sides to any story. The pro-ELCA forced a vote which they knew would fail because they paid for people to come back and vote with airplane tickets who were away at college and in other states who hadn't been in worship for years. There is only one pastor there, not two. You have bad information.
The split occured because after the vote failed, a second vote was taken to affiliate with LCMC and the pro-ELCA folks left.
This is the legacy of the 2009 ELCA actions. It is the parishes and local pastors and members who suffer-if there is bad leadership, it is with the leaders of the ELCA who pushed this for the past 15 years when 60% of the members of the ELCA were saying no, don't do it. 600 people voted for 4 million, now down to about 3.2 million.
Sad.
(John 8) while Jesus went to the Mount of Olives. 2 Early in the morning he came again to the temple. All the people came to him and he sat down and began to teach them. 3 The scribes and the Pharisees brought a woman who had been caught in adultery; and making her stand before all of them, 4 they said to him, "Teacher, this woman was caught in the very act of committing adultery. 5 Now in the law Moses commanded us to stone such women. Now what do you say?" 6 They said this to test him, so that they might have some charge to bring against him. Jesus bent down and wrote with his finger on the ground. 7 When they kept on questioning him, he straightened up and said to them, "Let anyone among you who is without sin be the first to throw a stone at her." 8 And once again he bent down and wrote on the ground. 9 When they heard it, they went away, one by one, beginning with the elders; and Jesus was left alone with the woman standing before him. 10 Jesus straightened up and said to her, "Woman, where are they? Has no one condemned you?" 11 She said, "No one, sir." And Jesus said, "Neither do I condemn you. Go your way, and from now on do not sin again." 12 Again Jesus spoke to them, saying, "I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will never walk in darkness but will have the light of life." 13 Then the Pharisees said to him, "You are testifying on your own behalf; your testimony is not valid." 14 Jesus answered, "Even if I testify on my own behalf, my testimony is valid because I know where I have come from and where I am going, but you do not know where I come from or where I am going. 15 You judge by human standards; I judge no one. 16 Yet even if I do judge, my judgment is valid; for it is not I alone who judge, but I and the Father who sent me.
ReplyDeleteAs a sinner, my view is that I will let God make the judgement of who has committed a sin in this world. It is based upon this faith and trust in God's judgment, that has made me feel so ashamed of the La Casa de Cristo Lutheran congregation and its Pastors. The Pastors should have been able to provide much more positive leadership on this issue. The Pastors legacy now will be tainted by this horribe derision that has lead the congregation to even consider leaving the ELCA.
Though I long ago left La Casa de Cristo, it hurts me to think that this church is not strong enough to be welcoming to all sinners who chose to spread the good news of Jesus Christ.
Thanks for providing this space for my humble opinion.
Thank you for explaining that situation to us. I don't know this congregation, and so I will not comment. Please remember to be present at the NOVEMBER 7TH congregational meeting and please vote your conscience.
ReplyDeleteKC Goodyear: Thank you so much for your views. It is refreshing to me to see and feel true Christian love at work. Your opinion, like mine may be ever so humble, but I believe with all my heart and soul, that we best represent Him when we follow what he would teach to us. "A new commandment I give to you; that you love one another as I have loved you". God bless you KC in your continuing walk with our Lord and Savior. Peace be with you.
ReplyDeleteTo the person who said the church is not welcoming to sinners, they really should have taken the time to understand all sinners are welcome. The doors are open to everyone. With the size La Casa is, there are gay people here, open or in the closet. No one has ever judged them.
ReplyDeleteThe question is leadership. All staff must be faithful if married (which by the way, if heterosexual and they have affairs, they are not only removed from La Casa, but the ELCA clergy roster) , and if single, celibate. In the past, volunteers have been asked to step down as youth leaders because they lived together outside marriage. A former music director signed an agreement , then moved in with someone.
Our leaders are called to lead us , and be examples. This is not about judging members, it is about the quality of being a leader.
I, for one, don't want my kids taught by people living together outside marriage, straight or gay. I don't want pastors who don't practice what they preach.
If some have left ashamed, many more have joined because La Casa lives out what they ask their people to live out. Not perfect, just forgiven,
To the former member of fountain hills. I've spoken with many current members and some who have left who have indicated that the vote was in favor of staying in hhe elca. I spoke with people who counted the survey. It was in favor of staying. I'm sorry you were misinformed. Also a friend of mine recently wanted to reengage in a Lutheran church. He attended the fountain hills church. Someone came up to him to explain how they won't be staying in the ELCA. He's going to a none lutheran church now. So I stand by my comments that the pastors of fountain hills usurped the power of the members of that church. At best it was ambiguous.
ReplyDeleteWell, you are misinformed. Why don't you speak to the Synodical office and they can clarify the results of the vote for you in Fountain HIlls....you have spoken to members. I was a member in Fountain Hills....My point wasn't that the vote failed (thus indicating they could not proceed to take a second vote), it did fail. You are correct there, but you stated earlier that "80% of the congregation wanted to stay and the pastors (there is only one) lead them out of ELCA".
ReplyDeleteYou said that 80% favored staying, but that doesn't bear out in facts when 65% (just short of the two-thirds) voted to LEAVE ELCA. That means that at most somewhere between only 30-40% favored staying.
That is a big discrepancy from 80% being in favor of staying as you stated earlier, don't you think? Facts don't bear out your story about the congregation wanting to stay and only the pastor or leadership wanting to leave. At most, only 40% wanted to stay, hence the current split.
Thanks for clarifying the issue for us. This is obviously a conversation between these two posters, so no other comment from me is necessary.
ReplyDeleteGreat so it was just short of the two-thirds necessary to leave. at that point it should have been a dead issue. i stand by my statement that the pastor usurped the authority of the congregation. Also, i didn't know the synod was involved with the written survey that was sent out to the church's members. that's news to me. My understanding was that they are involved with the congregatinal meetings not the survey. So did the pastor have the written survey and then have a congregational vote anyway? If so why?
ReplyDeleteA pastor cannot usurp the authority of the congregation , any person who knows how Lutheran churches are organized understands that. They have not left the ELCA, the vote did not succeed. I stand by my statement, close to 2/3 of the congregation favored leaving, not 80% staying. This is the type of misinformation out there that leads to false witness and half-truths.
ReplyDeleteBy the way, even if the pastor had a survey indicating the majority wanted to stay , that is exactly what the ELCA did....they changed the vote to a simple majority, and knowing half the laity was opposed to it, voted anyway. Maybe that was the way he was trained?
Thanks Tom for providing this forum. It is a good way for everyone to express their ideas.
ReplyDeleteMy statement about being ashamed of the Pastors of La Casa de Cristo Lutheran Church comes not from a Parlimentarily, democratic or Roberts Rules of Order view of by-laws, but from a spiritual point.
Spiritually, I cannot understand how any Christian person can usurp God authority over another persons sin. The doubt alone that I would not be making the right judgement for God, would be enough to shake my faith in the ability of God's wisdom.
Jesus has told us that he who is without sin cast the first stone...further he has told us that it is he and the Father who will judge.
Yes, La Casa de Cristo Lutheran Church may be welcoming to all sinners. But if your sin is not judged by the congregation to be acceptable, you will not be allowed to spread the word and Good News of Jesus Christ through music, ministry or teaching.
Thanks Tom once again for providing this forum. As a former member of La Casa de Cristo, perhaps it isn't appropriate for me to post here. However, it does hurt my heart to see where the congregation is going and I appreciate you allowing me to post.
KC,
ReplyDeleteDo you believe there are any qualities for leaders at all? Should they be allowed to sleep around (man or woman, doesn't matter)? Should they be allowed to be bad examples for children and youth? Would you not agree that if you had a child in the youth group and the volunteers were living together they should not be leaders?
See, you mistake making distinctions in leadership with judging sin . If someone was standing at the door keeping people out for sins, or not allowing them communion, then that would be wrong.
But stating there are expectations for leaders, there is nothing wrong for that.
And shame on you. Pastor Garman has for 35 done so many things for so many people....the things he does people never know about. He visited my mother in the middle of the night when she was dying. He showed up at her funeral even though she wasn't a member. He gives and gives and gives, and people have the gall to say he is a bad person for taking a stand.
Disagree, fine. But the pastors at La Casa are not throwing stones. The folks throwing stones are the ones who are bearing false witness against our leaders.
Just a point of clarification. If you read my comment from 9/30, I didn't say that the Pastors were throwing stones. It is my opinion based on my history at La Casa de Cristo Lutheran Church, that the Pastors have failed in their Spiritual leadership of a congregation throwing stones.
ReplyDeleteI am keenly aware of the many things Pastor Garman and Pastor Peters have done. Never did I say that they were bad persons for taking a stand. My great disappointment in the Pastors, comes also with the great Christian love and leadership that they had when I was a member of La Casa de Cristo. My link to membership at La Casa de Cristo was unique and much longer than you could ever know. Also, while I was a member, I came out to the Pastor Carol before anyone else I knew, because I felt that my faith and love of God and the church were more important than anything else. At the time I was assured that I would be welcome, and was encouraged to keep my roles and involvement in La Casa de Cristo.
Yes indeed, all sinners may be welcome at La Casa de Cristo, but the distinction to be made is that if you want to spread the Good News of Jesus Christ at Lutheran through, music, fellowship, teaching, or leadership, the congregation is making a judgment for God, in who is worth of spreading the Good News of Jesus Christ and who is not.
Your comment that I am bearing false witness against our leaders is an interesting one. Shouldn't you be asking yourself the following questions: Are you sure that I am? Are you personally condemning me as a breaking one of the ten commandments? Who am I to judge? Is my faith in Jesus and God so small, that I cannot trust in God to make judgement upon me or this person?
I think if you are able to answer any of these questions in all honesty with a yes, then you understand why I feel disappointed and ashamed in the Spiritual Guidance of the Pastors.
This is my last post on this blog. To the Pastors of La Casa de Cristo Lutheran Church. Please review the history of the church and realize the destruction that a schism can cause. The harm it can do to families, society, community and the church itself.
To the members of La Casa de Cristo. Please remember that in less than 50 years ago women were not deemed worthy to be ordained. Divorced people, a non-married man and woman were not welcome to teach, preach or be actively in the Lutheran Church. Many members of the church now are actively involved in leadership roles that live within this lifestyle. Please don't ask them to give up their voice for God. How far to you want to stray from a Christ centered life of everyone being able to spread the Good News of Jesus Christ, to a life unlike Jesus Christ where only a few are privileged enough to spread that word.
God Bless you all in your journey from the ELCA.