Here's to continuing the dialogue

Recently, there was a long comment about my belief that La Casa de Cristo shouldn't leave the ELCA until our congregation has had a full discussion. I want to respond to that comment. You can see the original comment by clicking on the “Comments” link at the bottom of my first blog entry. I’ve restated the salient points, with my responses, in this entry.

Anonymous said...
It is sad that so much misinformation is shared about our church and the process.

My response...
I am not in the misinformation business. I disagree that I’ve offered misinformation here.

Anonymous said...

There have been at least five open forums on this subject.

My response...
Yes, and I was present for three of them. I believe we never received an impartial presentation of what the national church body decided or how it came to its decision. More importantly, I believe we have not had a full, open discussion of different approaches to reading Scripture and how good scriptural scholarship is done.

Anonymous said...
One of our pastors was in Minnesota and fielded questions at two forums.

My response...
Yes, and Pastor Jeff and I have discussed this and several other issues.  In addition I have talked with many other representatives, not from La Casa, who also were present at the congress.  I have researched the issues involved, and have come to different conclusions than those of our congregational leaders.

Anonymous said...
Our pastors have been clear that all are welcome to church, and that this is about ordination and redefining marriage, not about what society does with civil marriages.

My response...
How welcome are you if you’re told you cannot hold a position of leadership or service? I doubt that any of us would join a congregation that would allow us to do nothing more than take part in limited ways and give our monetary support. If you truly believe a person is living openly and defiantly in rebellion against God, then it seems to me you wouldn’t welcome that person at all. I don’t believe that of gay people in committed relationships, but in any case, La Casa is not being forced to accept ministers it doesn’t want. It’s only being asked to be understanding of congregations who see things differently. I don’t see that as being asked to accept false teaching, only to understand that some Christians see things differently than we do. And remember, we all see through a glass dimly.

ELCA is not forcing any church to follow the decisions; it is an option for those congregations wishing to pursue it.  Many have chosen just to ignore it and move forward.  But I find it significant to note that out of the significant number of ELCA congregations in existence, only a minute fraction choose to leave the organization.    

Anonymous said...
Our pastors stated publicly they have counseled people with gay kids or who struggled themselves and never judged them, but treated them kindly.

My response...
I would ask in what way or fashion they have counseled these folks. That is of course, none of our business.  And to what do you refer when you use the phrase, “who struggled themselves”? Struggled with what?  And why is it necessary to make sure we realize that these folks were ”treated kindly?"  Is that not what Christian love is all about?  “Do unto others as you would have done unto you”!

Anonymous said...
But you can’t ignore the bible!

My response...
I wholeheartedly agree!  I have spent a great amount of time researching this issue both within and outside the Bible.  More on this thought in a moment.

Anonymous said...
This is the great problem in our time. People are seeking what they want, not what God wants. As for your comments on the role of women and slavery, the problem is that there are also passages that say slavery is bad and women should be in leadership. It is my understanding that one can struggle with issues which seem to have different results, but the issue is clear here, and nothing positive is said. By the way, there are passages in both the Old and New Testaments.

My response...
I will address these concerns together as one point.  That the problem of “seeking what you want” exists and has for eternity is of no surprise.  This is the issue to which man’s religion has addressed itself for eons.  The question we address however is NOT one of “seeking what you want.”

Homosexuality is not a choice, and people don’t voluntarily seek it out. In my view, there are lifestyles and styles of life. The distinction between the two is vast.  Styles of life deal with the choices we make; lifestyles deal with who we are.   Promiscuity, for example, is a style of life.  Hetero or homosexuality is a lifestyle, a part of who we as human beings are.  Sexuality is not a choice!  Promiscuity consists of making choices.  I would argue that the person who is called by the Lord to serve is the kind of person I would not hesitate to listen to or to learn from.  The Lord has called him or her, not me!  Am I to question the Lord’s choice?  If so, I am guilty of exactly what you point out; that I would want what I want, and not what God wants. Sexuality and choice of partner have absolutely nothing to do with whom the Lord would call.
 
Let us go back to the Bible for a moment.  This excerpt from the ELCA website is relevant:

"ELCA Lutherans confidently proclaim with all Christians that the authority of the Bible rests in God. We believe that God inspired the Bible’s many writers, editors and compilers. As they heard God speaking and discerned God’s activity in events around them in their own times and places, the Bible’s content took shape. Among other things, the literature they produced includes history, legal code, parables, and letters of instruction, persuasion and encouragement, tales of heroism, love poetry and hymns of praise. The varying types and styles of literature found here all testify to faith in a God who acts by personally engaging men and women in human history.

"At the same time, we also find in the Bible human emotion, testimony, opinion, cultural limitation and bias. ELCA Lutherans recognize that human testimony and writing are related to and often limited by culture, customs and world view. Today we know that the earth is not flat and that rabbits do not chew their cud (Leviticus 11:6). These are examples of time-bound cultural understandings or practices. Christians do not follow biblically prescribed dietary laws such as eliminating pork from one’s diet (Leviticus 11:7) because the new covenant we have with God has replaced the Old Testament covenant God had with his people. Because Biblical writers, editors and compilers were limited by their times and world views, even as we are, the Bible contains material wedded to those times and places. It also means that writers sometimes provide differing and even contradictory views of God’s word, ways and will.

"Listening to the living Jesus in the context of the church, we therefore have the task of deciding among these. Having done this listening, we sometimes conclude either that the writer’s culture or personal experience (e.g., subordination of women or keeping of slaves) seems to have prompted his missing what God was saying or doing, or that God now is saying or doing something new. The Bible’s authority is interpreted through Jesus.

"By no means does that human presence in sacred Scripture detract from the Bible’s testimony to God. Rather, this human testimony provides layers of faith and insight by those who contributed to the canon. The Bible’s reliability lies not in reading it as science or proscription, but as humankind’s chief witness to God, reflecting on faith as it is to be lived. Again, ELCA Lutherans judge all Scripture through the window of God’s chief act — that of entering human flesh in Jesus of Nazareth — and they interpret Scripture by listening to the living Jesus in the context of the Church. Because Jesus’ person, life and witness become the lens through which we read and interpret all Scripture, we can judge slavery as "not of Jesus," yet understand the customs of the time and read Paul’s inspiring letter to Philemon, master of the slave Onesimus, as testimony to faith.

"On several occasions, Martin Luther suggested that not all books of the Bible have the same value for faith formation. Similarly, as in all of life, ELCA Lutherans ask, "Is what we find here consistent with God’s revelation in Jesus?" This is a central question/prescription that provides guidance for acting as moral beings and for calling humankind to justice; it also becomes the authority for our reading Scripture, for it is the Jesus of Scripture, the living Word, who reveals God and judges Scripture, just as he is the judge for all else in life. Therefore, it is a question that ELCA Lutherans find best answered within the life of the Church in community, for this risen Jesus is Lord of the Church."

I and many others have come to believe that our traditional views and treatment of homosexuality – and the passages you cite – are not consistent with God’s revelation in Jesus. This is the conversation we haven’t had at La Casa. We’ve only been told that those who want to have it are in error.

Anonymous said...
The congregation has been dealing with this for over a year. How long will this go on?

My response...
I would hope, until our entire congregation has an opportunity to weigh in with their thoughts on this issue, and not just the 400 or so that voted in the first ballot.  This is far too great an issue to be left to less than 15% of our membership, don’t you agree?

Thank you so much for expressing your thoughts on this matter.  I’m sure He takes great delight in our discussion.  I do not speak to change minds; rather I speak to offer possibilities and interpretations that have yet to be discussed.  And unless and until they are, the decision we make is not fully understood.
 
Please, be present at the second ballot and vote your conscience after studying the issue thoroughly.  Yours in service to Christ, Tom