You'll find the comment below originally posted here. It's dated October 1 at 1:16 a.m. I wanted to make a few observations.
KCGOODYEAR said ...
Just a point of clarification. If you read my comment from 9/30, I didn't say that the Pastors were throwing stones. It is my opinion based on my history at La Casa de Cristo Lutheran Church, that the Pastors have failed in their Spiritual leadership of a congregation throwing stones.
I am keenly aware of the many things Pastor Garman and Pastor Peters have done. Never did I say that they were bad persons for taking a stand. My great disappointment in the Pastors, comes also with the great Christian love and leadership that they had when I was a member of La Casa de Cristo. My link to membership at La Casa de Cristo was unique and much longer than you could ever know. Also, while I was a member, I came out to the Pastor Carol before anyone else I knew, because I felt that my faith and love of God and the church were more important than anything else. At the time I was assured that I would be welcome, and was encouraged to keep my roles and involvement in La Casa de Cristo.
Yes indeed, all sinners may be welcome at La Casa de Cristo, but the distinction to be made is that if you want to spread the Good News of Jesus Christ at Lutheran through, music, fellowship, teaching, or leadership, the congregation is making a judgment for God, in who is worth of spreading the Good News of Jesus Christ and who is not.
Your comment that I am bearing false witness against our leaders is an interesting one. Shouldn't you be asking yourself the following questions: Are you sure that I am? Are you personally condemning me as a breaking one of the ten commandments? Who am I to judge? Is my faith in Jesus and God so small, that I cannot trust in God to make judgement upon me or this person?
I think if you are able to answer any of these questions in all honesty with a yes, then you understand why I feel disappointed and ashamed in the Spiritual Guidance of the Pastors.
This is my last post on this blog. To the Pastors of La Casa de Cristo Lutheran Church. Please review the history of the church and realize the destruction that a schism can cause. The harm it can do to families, society, community and the church itself.
To the members of La Casa de Cristo. Please remember that in less than 50 years ago women were not deemed worthy to be ordained. Divorced people, a non-married man and woman were not welcome to teach, preach or be actively in the Lutheran Church. Many members of the church now are actively involved in leadership roles that live within this lifestyle. Please don't ask them to give up their voice for God. How far to you want to stray from a Christ centered life of everyone being able to spread the Good News of Jesus Christ, to a life unlike Jesus Christ where only a few are privileged enough to spread that word.
God Bless you all in your journey from the ELCA.
Thank you, KC, for your heartfelt comments. Having been in our family for as long a time as you apparently were, and watching the situation up close and personal, you of all folk probably know why I am so passionate about trying to save this family from taking what I consider to be the wrong path, without at least having full knowledge of what this path and its consequences really are. There are a couple of things I’d prefer to share with you privately, so if you wish, drop me an email at many.oneof@yahoo.com, and I’ll discuss them with you there. Peace be with you KC and thanks for your blessings. I’m sure we are going to need them.
Thursday, October 7, 2010
Not besmirching
The comment below can be found in its entirety here. It's dated October 7 at 7:58 a.m. I want to make a couple of observations.
Anonymous said ...
I don't think it is right that you headline a post that says someone is ashamed of our pastors. You are free to disagree, but you are besmirching their names and their work by doing this.
I appreciate your comments. Let me clarify one issue here: I am not besmirching anyone. I am posting everything, with the exception of some pretty nasty emails that I personally have received, to be transparent. I’ll not post the stuff that contains profanity or name calling, and I’ve been called some whoppers since this blog began! But that’s ok; not everyone will agree with me and this I know all too well. The pastors know how I much I respect them from personal discussions we have had, so to post someone’s opinion will not hurt their reputation in the least. I do feel it necessary to expose the feelings that are present in this discussion, however.
Not, mind you, by this blog, but allowing a post that prominently says things that are against Christian charity.
If you re-read KC’s posts, I think this is what they are complaining about as well. And in their opinion, having been a member of La Casa, I think they have a right to express it in this blog.
Anonymous said ...
This person is not even a member. If the purpose of your blog is promote discussion, good will, and understanding, you won't achieve it by featuring posts like this. I am sure this is hurtful to our pastors.
I think the more important issue is why this person felt compelled to leave our family. What was the specific issue is what I would like to know, and is it relevant to our discussion. We will never know that answer, however, I do think that any member past or present should be welcome here. Certainly only members should be allowed to attend the congregational meetings and vote on the issue, but I welcome conversation from whomever this issue affects.
Thank you for your comments. I take them to heart, I want you to know. And please remember to be present at the CONGREGATIONAL MEETING NOVEMBER 7, 2010 and vote your conscience. Yours in service to Christ, Tom.
Anonymous said ...
I don't think it is right that you headline a post that says someone is ashamed of our pastors. You are free to disagree, but you are besmirching their names and their work by doing this.
I appreciate your comments. Let me clarify one issue here: I am not besmirching anyone. I am posting everything, with the exception of some pretty nasty emails that I personally have received, to be transparent. I’ll not post the stuff that contains profanity or name calling, and I’ve been called some whoppers since this blog began! But that’s ok; not everyone will agree with me and this I know all too well. The pastors know how I much I respect them from personal discussions we have had, so to post someone’s opinion will not hurt their reputation in the least. I do feel it necessary to expose the feelings that are present in this discussion, however.
Not, mind you, by this blog, but allowing a post that prominently says things that are against Christian charity.
If you re-read KC’s posts, I think this is what they are complaining about as well. And in their opinion, having been a member of La Casa, I think they have a right to express it in this blog.
Anonymous said ...
This person is not even a member. If the purpose of your blog is promote discussion, good will, and understanding, you won't achieve it by featuring posts like this. I am sure this is hurtful to our pastors.
I think the more important issue is why this person felt compelled to leave our family. What was the specific issue is what I would like to know, and is it relevant to our discussion. We will never know that answer, however, I do think that any member past or present should be welcome here. Certainly only members should be allowed to attend the congregational meetings and vote on the issue, but I welcome conversation from whomever this issue affects.
Thank you for your comments. I take them to heart, I want you to know. And please remember to be present at the CONGREGATIONAL MEETING NOVEMBER 7, 2010 and vote your conscience. Yours in service to Christ, Tom.
Wednesday, October 6, 2010
Some thoughts from an ex-member of La Casa
You'll find the comment excerpted below in its entirety here. It's dated September 30 at 10:33 a.m. I'll make a few observations here.
KCGOODYEAR said ...
Thanks Tom for providing this forum. It is a good way for everyone to express their ideas.
My statement about being ashamed of the pastors of La Casa de Cristo Lutheran Church comes not from a parliamentary, democratic or Roberts Rules of Order view of by-laws, but from a spiritual point.
Spiritually, I cannot understand how any Christian person can usurp God's authority over another person's sin. The doubt alone that I would not be making the right judgment for God, would be enough to shake my faith in the ability of God's wisdom.
Jesus has told us that he who is without sin cast the first stone...further he has told us that it is he and the Father who will judge.
Yes, La Casa de Cristo Lutheran Church may be welcoming to all sinners. But if your sin is not judged by the congregation to be acceptable, you will not be allowed to spread the word and Good News of Jesus Christ through music, ministry or teaching.
Thanks Tom once again for providing this forum. As a former member of La Casa de Cristo, perhaps it isn't appropriate for me to post here. However, it does hurt my heart to see where the congregation is going and I appreciate you allowing me to post.
Glad to have you as a part of the discussion KC. Your points are well taken and shared by several in this discussion including me. I feel we are missing the most important Commandment given to us by Jesus Christ contained in John 13: 34-35. He didn’t specify who or when to love; just that we love. I fail to see how we can do that by being exclusionary or prejudicial in our relationships with other human beings. I view leaving ELCA will brand our Church and lead us away from our walk with Jesus Christ.
Thank you so much for expressing your views, KC. We appreciate the time you took to comment on our situation. Peace be with you! Yours in Christ, Tom.
KCGOODYEAR said ...
Thanks Tom for providing this forum. It is a good way for everyone to express their ideas.
My statement about being ashamed of the pastors of La Casa de Cristo Lutheran Church comes not from a parliamentary, democratic or Roberts Rules of Order view of by-laws, but from a spiritual point.
Spiritually, I cannot understand how any Christian person can usurp God's authority over another person's sin. The doubt alone that I would not be making the right judgment for God, would be enough to shake my faith in the ability of God's wisdom.
Jesus has told us that he who is without sin cast the first stone...further he has told us that it is he and the Father who will judge.
Yes, La Casa de Cristo Lutheran Church may be welcoming to all sinners. But if your sin is not judged by the congregation to be acceptable, you will not be allowed to spread the word and Good News of Jesus Christ through music, ministry or teaching.
Thanks Tom once again for providing this forum. As a former member of La Casa de Cristo, perhaps it isn't appropriate for me to post here. However, it does hurt my heart to see where the congregation is going and I appreciate you allowing me to post.
Glad to have you as a part of the discussion KC. Your points are well taken and shared by several in this discussion including me. I feel we are missing the most important Commandment given to us by Jesus Christ contained in John 13: 34-35. He didn’t specify who or when to love; just that we love. I fail to see how we can do that by being exclusionary or prejudicial in our relationships with other human beings. I view leaving ELCA will brand our Church and lead us away from our walk with Jesus Christ.
Thank you so much for expressing your views, KC. We appreciate the time you took to comment on our situation. Peace be with you! Yours in Christ, Tom.
Let's study before we make an irrevocable decision
You'll find the comment excerpted below in its entirety here. It's dated September 30 at 12:32 p.m. Let me make a few observations here.
Anonymous said ...
Saying "you twist words" is a great way to poison the well. We don't want to follow everything Luther said. He also said some pretty unsightly things about Jews that if I follow your logic would have been based in scripture. When you say the bible is clear it is confusing to me. There are interpretations on both sides of this issue that appear to be clear. Both sides have their own biases if you will. There is no way to say which one is right.
Luther used the one of the philosophies of the day to help him articulate his understanding of his Doctrine of the Two Kingdoms. This philosophy helped him understand how God could be in the world but not of the world.
We do not have, in the Lutheran church, a corresponding anthropology that helps us interpret human beings as they appear and act in scripture. We just read and say, "that's clear." But so does the other side. This is why Tom's attempt to generate conversation here is so important. Important because we live in a different world than Luther and our anthropology would be different than Luther’s.
Of course the problem with what I am suggesting is that anthropology is a science and the fundamentalist branch of the Lutheran denomination rejects science as having anything positive to say with regard to faith. There is no evolution etc, etc. Consequently we end up in circular conversation as we have in this blog. It seems inevitable that the fundamentalists would have to split away from the ELCA and form their own church. Its unfortunate but it seems to be the only answer.
This post identifies some of the problems we face in this discussion. The problem remains that prior to a vote that will change the direction we as a church family take, we must have full and complete information with which to make such a decision. This can only come from ongoing and in-depth conversation with those in favor of and those opposed to such a move. We need to know why we should stay and why we should leave ELCA. We need information before we make an irrevocable decision!
Thank you for expressing your concerns so well. Please remember to be present at the NOVEMBER 7 2010 congregational meeting and vote your conscience. Yours in service to Christ, Tom.
Anonymous said ...
Saying "you twist words" is a great way to poison the well. We don't want to follow everything Luther said. He also said some pretty unsightly things about Jews that if I follow your logic would have been based in scripture. When you say the bible is clear it is confusing to me. There are interpretations on both sides of this issue that appear to be clear. Both sides have their own biases if you will. There is no way to say which one is right.
Luther used the one of the philosophies of the day to help him articulate his understanding of his Doctrine of the Two Kingdoms. This philosophy helped him understand how God could be in the world but not of the world.
We do not have, in the Lutheran church, a corresponding anthropology that helps us interpret human beings as they appear and act in scripture. We just read and say, "that's clear." But so does the other side. This is why Tom's attempt to generate conversation here is so important. Important because we live in a different world than Luther and our anthropology would be different than Luther’s.
Of course the problem with what I am suggesting is that anthropology is a science and the fundamentalist branch of the Lutheran denomination rejects science as having anything positive to say with regard to faith. There is no evolution etc, etc. Consequently we end up in circular conversation as we have in this blog. It seems inevitable that the fundamentalists would have to split away from the ELCA and form their own church. Its unfortunate but it seems to be the only answer.
This post identifies some of the problems we face in this discussion. The problem remains that prior to a vote that will change the direction we as a church family take, we must have full and complete information with which to make such a decision. This can only come from ongoing and in-depth conversation with those in favor of and those opposed to such a move. We need to know why we should stay and why we should leave ELCA. We need information before we make an irrevocable decision!
Thank you for expressing your concerns so well. Please remember to be present at the NOVEMBER 7 2010 congregational meeting and vote your conscience. Yours in service to Christ, Tom.
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