People overall are not affirming anything

You'll find this comment in its entirety here. It's dated September 24 at 5:25 p.m. I'm sharing my thoughts about it below.

Anonymous said ...
Nice response, Pastor Garman.Sounds reasonable to me. This process has been going on for over a year, with multiple opportunities for input. The pastors have responded in person or writing to people asking questions. It is not their fault if after events have been publicized they are not well attended!

I would agree that members have to put their thoughts and words into action.  I would question whether the every Sunday member recognizes how important a decision this is.  We have arguably 1700 members at worship any given Sunday, and only 433 CARE enough to show up for the vote?  I simply cannot accept that.

Anonymous said ...
I think we can draw some conclusions...1) people love La Casa and all the many ministries-they don't care about a dying denomination..."all politics is local" as someone said, maybe all "church is local"

I would argue that with 10,000 estimated churches represented by ELCA as being members, and perhaps 600 of these moving away from ELCA that ELCA is hardly a dying denomination.  I love La Casa as well, and I feel we do good works in some areas.  However, I feel that the statement we will be making to our community is not one of Christian Love and inclusion.  Therefore, I would argue we are walking away from Our Lord and Savior, and not closer to Him. 

Anonymous said ...
2) People trust that for a year a good process was in place with lots of input from members. Sure, not everyone likes the results, like the blog author, but overall, people are affirming the decisions made.

No, I do not like the results to date, and have issues with the process.  However, I would argue that people overall are not affirming anything.  I want a representative vote to take place and have stated so many times. 

Anonymous said ...
3) I think once the vote is made that people who disagree have a choice...stick with the church and focus on other issues, or leave. Once the church has spoken, however it turns out, it is time to move on. If someone does not our pastors and leaders, why would they stay?

I agree, but to take it one step further, I don’t know what your last comment is meant to include, but I will add the phrase “agree with theologically” to your sentence.  I like these three folks but I do disagree with them theologically, philosophically and morally with their decision to lead us away from growth and new, exciting, scriptural revelation and realization by our denominational leadership.

Anonymous said ...
4) People simply don't care. Maybe they should, maybe they are broke or losing their homes. This is way below the radar screen for many.

Alas, I hope it is not so.  I’ve taken severe economic blows from this recession, but I find time to tend to my ministry, as well as contribute to Sunday services in whatever way I can both financially and spiritually. 

Anonymous said ...
One final comment-no process is perfect. If our leaders really wanted to leave ELCA and not seek out the wisdom of the people, they could have done so right after the decisions when emotions were high. Instead, they chose a cooling off period, many opportunities for input, opened their doors and inboxes.

I would concur with you.  Again, I am not in opposition to the leadership personally, but I am in opposition to their message and their methods.

Anonymous said ...
Out of a congregation of 3500 or so people a total of about 50 have voted here. I think that says a lot.

I would argue that this may be caused by lack of exposure to the blog.  The flyer campaign has been discontinued due to objections from Pastor Garman, and out of respect to him I complied.  However, I will not stop in my attempts to get the word out and hopefully get a large percentage of our membership engaged in this decision.

More consistent to consider joining the Missouri Synod?

You'll find the comment below in its entirety here. It's dated September 25 at 12:09 p.m.

Anonymous said ...
Well, there you have it. join the “missery” (sic) synod and get rid of our female pastor.

For those of you who do not know, this responder refers to the Missouri Synod, which does not allow women to be pastors. Obviously, this is not a viable option for La Casa. I should note, however, that in this regard, La Casa has taken a stand against most of Christianity, which believes that Scripture does not allow women to be ordained as pastors. 

Anonymous said ...
I vote for that. At least it would be more consistent than what we are doing.

I'm pretty sure you're saying this tongue in cheek. I believe this proposed move leads us away from Jesus Christ, rather than closer to him. 

Anonymous said ...
Its also nice to know that being conservative is the test for a true Lutheran or one that is not a joke. I'll text that to Luther.

Wishing to conserve one’s traditions is not necessarily a bad thing or a joke.  However, traditions such as slavery - or even refusing to ordain women - fall as the Spirit moves among us and leads us to understand Scripture and revelation in new ways. I believe we should at least have a full, open, widely publicized presentation at La Casa from an advocate of this side of the argument. Then, after hearing the other side fully, let the congregation decide. I hope we will forestall a decision to leave at least until this happens.

Inclusivity, the new Baal?

You'll find the comment below in its entirety here. It's dated September 26, 1:41 p.m. I wanted to highlight it here and respond.

Anonymous said ...
It seems that inclusivity is the new Baal, the god before whom everyone must bow down. The whole issue with the ELCA is much broader than a gay issue, it sets "cultural revelations" against 2000 years of Christian history. Do you consider yourself a prophet of the new Baal?

I do not consider myself a prophet,  much less one of Baal.  If you take a look at the 2,026 words attributed to Jesus Christ, you will find no exclusivity in them.  Nor will you find any reference to the gay issue. 

When in doubt, ask yourself what Jesus would do or say (humbly understanding, of course, that often the answer would be better than anything we come up with!). We know that Jesus commanded us to love one another as He loved us.  He did not set parameters; He did not exclude anyone; He did not say it’s ok to love part time, or on Tuesdays only.  It’s an all-the-time thing and is VERY inclusive. 

I would argue this is the very commandment we are breaking in our walk away from Christ! If we profess to follow the teachings of Martin Luther on our journey to find Jesus Christ, then I would suggest we start looking to Him for direction, and not the authors of man’s testaments to God.

Luther, of course, talked about sola Scriptura (Scripture alone) as well as sola fide (faith alone) and sola gratia (grace alone). When he talked about Scripture alone, he was emphasizing that it's in Scripture that we come to learn of God's love and salvation. He was urging his fellow believers to understand that heaven can't be bought or earned, as the church of his day was saying, but that it's a free gift from God who loves all people enough to undergo death and resurrection for them.

Luther's understanding of God's love led him to oppose the church's teaching that all suicide victims were damned because they died in sin. He was willing to include these people under the shelter of God's love. It's a lesson we all need to learn.

Of facts, opinions and the space in between

You can see this comment in its entirety here. It's dated Sept. 22 at 2:22 p.m. I want to encourage you to click on the link and read the comment made in response to this comment. My observations are below.


Anonymous said...
A couple of points:

1) The description of the ELCA and the bible is exactly why La Casa should leave. We don't decide or judge the bible, the bible is the one that decides for us.

I would argue that the Bible is speaking to us on both sides of this issue.  It is our interpretation of what it is saying that would seem to cause disparity. Further, I would argue, this is why I am urging for a complete discussion, transparency, and full disclosure of both sides of the issue.

Anonymous said...
While it may be true on issues like slavery or women different stances have been taken, the difference in this issue is that NOWHERE is anything positive said about homosexuality. God created Adam and Eve, and while you seem to indicate Jesus didn't speak of homosexuality, he gave us ONE standard for sexual relationships, and that is marriage.

As repeatedly stated there are 7 recognized passages that speak on the subject of same sex relationships.  The term homosexuality did not play a role in the early Bible and surfaced as a descriptive term much later.  Nowhere in the 2026 words attributed to Christ does He even address the issue, much less condemn it. .

Anonymous said...
No, we shouldn't go around pointing fingers or condemning anyone, but we can’t ignore what the bible says.

I completely concur with your thought here.

Anonymous said...
You know for a definite fact gay people are born that way? Funny, science hasn't even decided that one. Let us say someone is born with a desire to drink lots of alcohol. Should they? Does that make it right?

No one knows “for a fact”.  However, there are ongoing studies that tend to acknowledge the possibility.  My own ongoing study of a very specific sampling of respondents indicates a high percentage of gay men and women knew of their sexual orientation “as far back” as they could remember or before the age of 10.  Only recently have researchers gained meaningful data from which to glean tendencies, trends or create hypotheses in this area.  Most data available goes back to 1990 and 2000 census data which is incomplete, wrongly recorded, or insignificant due to data parameters.

Anonymous said...
Second, I am curious as to what degrees you have as the editor of this blog. Did you go to seminary like our pastors? Do you have a college or postgraduate degree? Did you study theology? All our pastors have Masters degrees and have graduated from accredited seminaries. How about you?

I’m puzzled as to why this matters to you.  Yes I am degreed.  No, I haven’t completed seminary but then neither did the authors of the Biblical texts.  They, as I am in the process of, researched their subject matter and recorded their findings. Have I read the Bible?  Yes multiple times.  Have I studied ancient languages?  No, I have not, but I certainly have read and spoken with many who have.  Have I read and interpreted the Dead Sea Scrolls?  No, I have not, but I’ve read and spoken with some who have.  Do I have knowledge of the current subject matter?  Yes, over 40 years worth.  Simply holding a degree does not make one an expert, just as not holding a degree does not make someone an idiot. 

Anonymous said...
You can do all the reading and quoting you want. Opinions are like backsides, everyone has one.

Thank you for pointing this out.

Anonymous said...
But my guess is unlike our pastors you have not studied the bible in the original languages or spent decades in school. Maybe you did, perhaps you would like to respond.

Study is engaging a subject and learning all you care to or can about it.  I do not have to study auto mechanics to change a tire or spark plug, but rebuilding a transmission requires a bit more knowledge.  I know of an individual whose degree is in Physics.  He is a pastor and knows more theology than you and I ever will.  It makes no difference.  He is but one piece of the puzzle just as you and I are.  When all the pieces are in place, then the complete picture will be revealed. 
My point is that we all have something to add and that we all are in a constant state of growth and revelation.  I am not a pastor.  I am however qualified to speak on this subject matter.  Now then, let me ask you a question if I may.  Are our pastors the only ones who have an opinion on this subject matter or are there other pastors who hold opposing views?  If so, who is right?  And why can’t we hear their point of view? I have spent considerable time researching this subject over 40 years.  I let that stand on its’ own.

Anonymous said...
So all this is just your opinion. You are free to do it, but don't pass yourself off as some expert.

When you determine to your satisfaction just exactly who is an expert and who is not, please share this information so that we may all learn something from you. 

Thank you sir/madam for your comments.  You are passionate and I appreciate the time it took for you to comment here.  Please plan to attend the next congregational meeting on NOVEMBER 7 2010 and please vote your conscience.  This is our church and your vote matters.